How Should We Then Live?

God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Go down

God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by Jeremyshall on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:45 pm

What do you guys think about this article?
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/sov.html

____________________
Jeremy
avatar
Jeremyshall

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-03-02
Age : 42

Back to top Go down

Sin and Sovereignty

Post by Jeremyshall on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:39 pm

I read this selection of articles from the Desiring God website and I don't want to loose them so I thought I would post here. I am posting the link to the fourth article because it includes links to the first three in the series as an opening.
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/the-author-story-model

____________________
Jeremy
avatar
Jeremyshall

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-03-02
Age : 42

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by JoelKizz on Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:42 pm

Jeremyshall wrote:What do you guys think about this article?
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/sov.html
Superb, a wee bit wordy, but still a very good analysis. I seriously, love to see God at work in paradox because it is such a reminder that at the end of the discussion, thinking, searching although we may have gotten deeper we are still just as far from understanding the truths of God. If we drill 10,000 ft into the ground of God's truth we still have just as far to go as before we started. Its good to know we are never going to reach a place where we quit discovering things about God.

____________________
Joel Kizzy
avatar
JoelKizz
Admin

Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-02-28
Age : 40
Location : Tuscaloosa, AL

http://thenlive.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:17 pm

Loose? Mad

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:19 pm

I'll be getting to this though. Seems quite interesting.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:52 pm

Heavy stuff. A few points:

1. I thought the second half of the piece made for a much more convincing argument than the first half (though this may have been because of the presence of Bible verses).

2. The first few paragraphs, in particular the paragraph about God ordaining the "means" as well as the "ends" comes across as a bit ambiguous to me because it almost seems as though he is also advocating that sin is ordained as well, which all of us, including the author, would agree would be in direct violation of God's holiness. He talks about sinning through indifferent fatalism, but he doesn't address intentional sin. His view that "God has fore-ordained everything that happens" including "the entire course of human history down to the smallest details" would, needless to say, include sin, and I just don't feel he explains that enough.

3. I think his view of indifferent fatalism is oversimplified and is too much of a straw man argument. I would like to hear someone argue for indifferent fatalism with a lengthier discussion before just blatantly dismissing it. I might be wrong and it is that simple, but it just doesn't seem like it to me.

4. He finally gets into the meat of the argument and it would seem, as Joel said, to be a paradox, but one that does make sense.

Overall, he makes some good points, but I would wish he would clarify those other points I had issues with.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by JoelKizz on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:57 pm

XianSmitherman wrote:
The first few paragraphs, in particular the paragraph about God ordaining the "means" as well as the "ends" comes across as a bit ambiguous to me because it almost seems as though he is also advocating that sin is ordained as well, which all of us, including the author, would agree would be in direct violation of God's holiness. .

Christian, do you not believe that God had foreknowledge that man would fall in the garden?

____________________
Joel Kizzy
avatar
JoelKizz
Admin

Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-02-28
Age : 40
Location : Tuscaloosa, AL

http://thenlive.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:09 pm

Foreknowledge and and ordaining the means are two different things IMHO.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:09 pm

But to answer your question, yes.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by JoelKizz on Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:44 am

I just want to walk into this carefully to see where (if any where) we disagree. So acknowledging God had foreknowledge of the fall, could God have intervened and prevented the fall?

____________________
Joel Kizzy
avatar
JoelKizz
Admin

Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-02-28
Age : 40
Location : Tuscaloosa, AL

http://thenlive.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:52 am

Could he, yes.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by JoelKizz on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:52 am

well that is where the rub is for me. Even things that God (sovereign) simply allows to happen he still must DECREE to allow it. The decree is an active role.

____________________
Joel Kizzy
avatar
JoelKizz
Admin

Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-02-28
Age : 40
Location : Tuscaloosa, AL

http://thenlive.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:35 pm

I agree with that, my point was that his interpretation was a bit ambiguous and seemed to be saying that God directed people to sin.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by Jeremyshall on Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:32 pm

What is the difference between a decree to allow and a direction to do something when you are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent?

____________________
Jeremy
avatar
Jeremyshall

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-03-02
Age : 42

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:40 pm

You have a point Jeremy, but I would see it as direction as purposely causing it to happen whereas a decree to allow would be letting it happen, but not being the cause.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by Jeremyshall on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:01 am

Causation is the question. God is not culpable for the sin, but He is the ultimate causation for all things. Allowing a thing, good or bad, as God, is the same as causing it to happen. With sin, we are freely choosing to do something that is against God's revealed will, but, to say that it is somehow outside of His sovereign control is to place either the sin, or our "free will" choice, equal to God. IMHO, or maybe not so H.

____________________
Jeremy
avatar
Jeremyshall

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-03-02
Age : 42

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by XianSmitherman on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:18 am

Honest or humble? IMHO can mean both.

____________________
Christian
avatar
XianSmitherman

Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-03-04
Age : 27

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by Jeremyshall on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:11 pm

That's what you took from the comment???? Nah, just messing with you bud...I was thinking humble.

____________________
Jeremy
avatar
Jeremyshall

Posts : 102
Join date : 2012-03-02
Age : 42

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by JoelKizz on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm

Jeremyshall wrote:I read this selection of articles from the Desiring God website and I don't want to loose them so I thought I would post here. I am posting the link to the fourth article because it includes links to the first three in the series as an opening.
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/the-author-story-model
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/the-author-story-model[/quote[/url]]

Merged thread on this article with the God's Sovereignty and my decisions thread as the discussions were sitting on top of each other.

____________________
Joel Kizzy
avatar
JoelKizz
Admin

Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-02-28
Age : 40
Location : Tuscaloosa, AL

http://thenlive.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: God's Sovereignty and my Free Will choices

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum