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Angle of the LORD

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Angle of the LORD

Post by jakemeyer.578 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:41 pm


So Pg. 21 in Doctrine... Angle of the Lord = Messenger of Yahwah = God the Son. This is what is being contended for i believe to show the idea of the trinity through out the Old Testament.

They use the example from Gen. 16, when Hagar become pregnant and runs from Sarai after being dealt with harshly. She is found by the "angle of the Lord." She is then commanded to return and submit to Sarai. She is also told that Ishmael will be a "wild donkey of an man, His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him." Which could explain the troubles in the Middle East today. He also told her that he will "multiply his offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude."

Why would God allow this to happen? Why would God "bless" Hagar and Ishmael? Ishmael is born due to human sin and impatience with God's timing, so the birth of Ishmael was not something God had "planned" (even tho I believe God knew full well it would happen.) So is the birth of Ishmael the result of human sin, and the consequences of this are what we see still today? and have to deal with today?

So whats the point of the blessing and allowing Ishmael to be a great nation as well that will fight against God's chosen people? A constant reminder of the consequence of sin? Seems self-defeating.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around that. I dont even know if it matters in the end. But it struck me as interesting!... Thoughts??

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Re: Angle of the LORD

Post by Spinks on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:06 am

I can see this as something that the Father presented to Hagar as a choice with either outcome known by the Father. This is also how I see the original sin taking place. God allowed the temptation and allowed decisions to be made while knowing the outcome of the circumstance based on each variable.

Does God, based on his supreme sovereignty, know which choice will be made even though he allows a decision to be made by man or, does God choose to not know the decision that will be made? Either way God's sovereignty is fully intact.

YMMV

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Re: Angle of the LORD

Post by Jeremyshall on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:50 am

For me, this situation is very reminiscent of the garden of eden. Knowing/Planning exactly what would happen in the garden, to the point that Christ was called "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", God still allowed Adam to live. God could just as easily have wiped man out and started over, in His perfect justice. But He didn't. He knew the amount of suffering that sin in this world would cause and yet he still allowed it to remain. I think, and this is "jeremyology" as Clint would say, that it is the way that He received the most glory in the situation. Pain drives us to our knees, suffering forces us to seek relief, in short, sin drives us to God.

Also, as Bill pointed out, there is the question of God's Sovereignty. For me, I don't think anything -ANYTHING - happens that isn't based in God's sovereign will. So, it wasn't that God just knew that Ishmael would be born, but that it was part of His plan. Even though Abraham sinned, that sinning wasn't outside of God's control. Abraham carried the guilt and shame and consequences, because he did exactly what he wanted to do, but God was still in total control and could have stopped it had He so chosen. This means, for me, that everything that has happened between those two brothers, and their extended families, has been a part of the greater plan that God has had from the beginning.

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Re: Angle of the LORD

Post by jakemeyer.578 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:14 pm

that makes sense. Thanks guys.

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